Where Does ‘The Dark Knight’ Leave Us?


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Where Does ‘The Dark Knight’ Leave Us?

Posted by MajorJJH | July 22nd, 2008 at 5:31 pm

Week of Geek: Batman

Not surprisingly, The Dark Knight has done sublimely well at the box office. We knew it was going to happen, but maybe we didn’t know just how well it was going to do. Given the way the world works, however, this means that there will almost definitely be a third movie in Christopher Nolan‘s reinvention of the Batman franchise.

And according to an article over at MTV, Nolan and his co-writers — brother Jonathan Nolan and David Goyer — have already discussed the theme and villain for a third movie.

But of course, no one is saying anything, which leaves us to speculate.

WARNING: CONTAINS SPOILERS

The overriding theme that we got from TDK concerning the future for Batman was that he and Gotham City were going to be at odds. This was brought to the fore during Batman’s conversation with an upside down Joker, and leading right into the final scenes between Batman and Gordon. Being chased into the shipping crates by Gotham’s finest’s canine unit and their human handlers, Batman is now the villain in a city which has just lost its white knight, Harvey Dent.

And this is not something that is new to the Batman universe, where oftentimes he is painted as a criminal vigilante. So in all likelihood, a large portion of a third Batman movie under Nolan’s direction will focus on Batman having to hide from the law. But just like Gordon’s young son, there will be those in Gotham that know that Batman is innocent of the crimes labeled against him.

But Batman versus Gotham is not going to be the title of the next film; there needs to be a villain. But this villain has to allow Batman the chance to redeem himself in the public eye. Enough must be put on the line, at stake, that Batman’s sacrifices and struggles to bring whomever to justice will allow him to be the hero that Gotham needs.

Add in to this equation the need to keep a measure of reality to the villains, and your list continues to diminish. Because as much as I love the Riddler or Bane, I can’t see them appearing in a third Nolan movie as Batman’s big enemy.

I’ve been asking my Twitter-peeps who they think will be making a return for the third movie, and the one answer I keep getting is Two-Face. Now I was at once saddened when the movie finished that they had killed off Harvey Dent. However, I was soon alerted to the possibility that he wasn’t actually dead. Nothing is said on the scene of Two-Face’s fall from the construction site, and the need to keep him redeemed in the eyes of the city was what sent Batman running in the first place, so it isn’t a huge leap to think that they faked his death and locked him up in Arkham Asylum.

So write Two-Face in as the number one choice of fans. But there are others, two in particular that have all of a sudden seen an opening in the position of “female lead”: Poison Ivy and Catwoman.

Catwoman will never play the big bad villain, and for good reason. She is a very talented burglar, but she’s not going to be vying for world domination or committing mass murder anytime soon. So she will play a small role in the next film, of that I am sure. She will be Bruce Wayne’s love interest and Batman’s constant annoyance in a city that doesn’t like either of them, which in and of itself will make for some fantastic scenes.

But in my movie, I would have Bruce Wayne and Catwoman forced into partnership by the evil doings of one Pamela Isley, aka, Poison Ivy.

Though the fantastical element of Ivy’s ability is to control plants and the like, take a step back and what you have is a fan favorite villain who is out to protect the planet and its plants. In this day and age of environmental awareness, the idea of making a movie where the main antagonist is trying to protect a city by destroying it is not a big leap to make. And even if Nolan and Co want to drop the attachment to realism, Poison Ivy still manages to be one of the better villains in the pages of Batman.

You’ve heard what I and my Twitter-peeps have to say, let’s hear what you have to say. The comments are just below, leave as long a reply as you would like. We would love to hear what you think. Who should be the villain(s) for the third Batman movie?

Topics: Features, Movies, Week of Geek | 117 Comments »

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tilespace

ooooohhhhhh Harley Quinn is a great choice! Harley Quinn as the supporting character/villain (like Scarecrow was). Just getting started maybe, making an appearance here and there, so on. And have the “main” villian be Clayface. Clayface would work out very well I think. Another “we don’t know how to fight/stop it so let the Bat do his thing… for now.” type of situation. Maybe that would prove to be a good intro for the Catwoman but… then you’re throwing alot of stuff into a single movie. Someone (character-wise) is gonna get short-sheeted… And then HQ could be brought back *if* they go for #4.
BearFrog

Johnny Depp as The Riddler is actually very possible in the Nolan universe if you look two facts:

1) Depp is an extremely talented actor able to take on a wide array of roles and do them WELL. From Willy Wonka to Sweeney Todd to Jack Sparrow, the man is able to give a role what it needs.

2) The Riddler is not always “Joker-Lite”. The best example of this is his appearances in the 1990s animated series, where he is given a calm, cool and collected sort of intelligence as opposed to the wackiness of The Riddler.

Depp has an ability to portray calm yet captivating characters, so he if he plays The Riddler as a calm genius as opposed to a wacky genius like the Joker, the film can have a different villain and someone who challenges Batman on an intellectual level.

Harley Quinn I feel is impossible to do in this film series because of the death of Heath Ledger. They won’t recast The Joker, and without The Joker there’s no effective way of bringing Harley to the big screen. If we had dialouge explain her past and the lack of Joker, it’d feel awkward and forced, so we’re not going to see her (despite my love for the character).

The Phantasm could be an interesting character, but there would be a difficulty in Bruce falling in love again so quickly so a femme fatale that dosn’t neccesarily make Bruce fall in love but tempt him with lust makes Talia, Catwoman or Ivy legitimate choices for the next film and are almost a neccesity. We’ve seen squeaky clean Rachel Dawes, and Batman isn’t ready for love again, but he’ll have to deal with seductresses that are far different from his childhood friend. They’d serve as an excellent foil compared to the love interest from the first two films.

I think Black Mask is a likely villain because of the mob connections, his foil to Batman and the fact that he was written into the script for The Dark Knight at one point. However, I think it’s likely they’re going to fuse the character with Hush to make the character more interesting (because, let’s face it, Hush is basically an improved version of Black Mask) and the whole connection to Bruce’s past brings the story full circle.

Another possiblity I haven’t seen ANYONE mention is taking cues from the current Batman storyarc, Batman RIP. For those who don’t know, in the arc there’s a suggestions that the Wayne family weren’t such goodie two-shoes and that Bruce’s parents induldged in drugs and orgies and that Bruce’s mother had an affair with Alfred, possibly making him the father. Also, to add to the conspiracy, there are suggestions that Bruce’s Dad hired the hit on his wife as revenge for adultery and faked his own death alongside her. Of course, at this point the storyarc is ongoing and it may be true that Dr. Simon Hurt really isn’t Thomas Wayne, but there are some truly interesting elements in Batman RIP that can truly bring about a climactic finale.

The big thing to remember is that the next movie needs to be about Batman and not the villain. We need to see how Bruce is affected, we need to see emotion coming from him and we need a villain that compliments the “hated vigilante” theme, and yes, we do need redemption in the eyes of the public and the only way to do that is stopping a truly catastrophic event.

So what we need in the next movie is a female love interest to contrast with Rachel Dawes, a threat/villain that is public enough to demand public support of Batman, and something that grabs at the soul of Bruce Wayne.

So, what do get in the next film? I’d guess Catwoman as the femme fatale who steals but ultimately isn’t too evil and helps out in the end, and the “major” villain being either The Riddler or Black Mask/Hush. The Thomas Wayne story idea is great for film (maybe a 4th film), but dosn’t fit in well with the whole “Batman the outcast” scenario they set up.
http://www.myfacehasapunchinit.com copacetic

The Falcone story arc can be brought to its logical conclusion, since The Long Halloween serves as a guide to this current franchise. Bring that to a head in the third movie, involving the Riddler, traces of the Joker, and possibly the debut of Hush? We’ve got ourselves a movie.

Other possibilities include the Black Mask introducing himself as the new face of organized crime in Gotham, with the mob running and hiding after the events of The Dark Knight.
John B

I believe it would be a huge mistake for Chris Nolan to bring in multiple bad guys (or gals) in the third installment. Too many main characters and too many marquee names are what reduced the franchise to campy crap the last time around (post- Tim Burton).

I read earlier this month a column rhapsodizing over the possibility of an Angelina Jolie Catwoman. God help us. What a casting disaster that would be!!

A retooled Riddler would work fine in this series, but ultimately the script and screenplay along with sound casting (who would have thought Ledger would have been so brilliant) will make any chosen adversary work.
Arvindh

If I had my picks for villains in the third Batman flick, it would be The Riddler, Two-Face, and Bane. Of course Catwoman would make for a good cameo and Harley Quinn would rock. But despite all that has happened, I still say that I’d LOVE to see The Joker return for a second round. That would mean recasting him. Hear me out. I salute Heath Ledger and what he has done for The Joker. He set the standards and raised the bar. But to completely remove The Joker from a third installment would deem his chaos in TDK irrelevant. You can’t just ignore The Joker. You CAN ignore Two-Face, or any other villain for that matter, but never The Joker. He’s in a league of his own. Some say recasting him would be an insult to Ledger. That’s insane, seeing as Heath Ledger ‘owned’ the role, made it his own, and delivered a stellar performance. Getting an actor to follow in his footsteps would only be an honor, and I’m sure Ledger would have wanted to character to return. Heck, we all know Nolan had plans for him in the third installment anyway.

Look at it this way; if I told you 2 years ago that Heath Ledger would play The Joker, you would’ve laughed at my notion. You would have said “Nobody beats Jack Nicolson’. Look at how things have shaped up to be now. 20 years down the road, someone will remake Batman, and The Joker will return, and someone will revolutionize the character once again. It’s inevitable. I say bring someone with the credibility and talent to play The Joker. If done right, nobody will sense the differnce although they know it’s a different actor. Allow the character to thrive. That’s the beauty of comics. What happens in the real world, no matter how bitter, cannot completely destroy a comic character.

Here’s how it goes; The Riddler is a new menace. They should make him look like the one in The Batman cartoon. He’s psychotic, but he’s also obsessed with solving puzzles. And the greatest puzzle is; who is Batman? He finds the truth somehow and knows it’s Wayne. He murders people and only lets them go if they can solve a riddle. Somwhat like the SAW movies, only not as gory. He’s just psycho…but incredibly smart. It comes to a point where Gotham needs Batman, but not even Batman can crack The Riddler’s sadistic game. He won’t allow himself to think like a madman. Gordon and Batman come to realize that they need help. In all irony, from The Joker. They go to Arkham. We see The Joker in his cell. Something like the Hannibal stories where Lecter helps the good guys from the inside. The Joker taunts and provokes the Bat, saying that he’s only in Arkham because he wants to be. Right there we see a female doctor walk in. Nametag? Harleen Quinzell. Perfect cameo! We’ll probably see a cell tagged ‘Harvey Dent’ as well.

So you see, we don’t need much of The Joker. Just a bit. Just enough to make an impact. Something to tell us that there’s no escape from his anarchy. That he can and will escape. Bane could be another villain. Someone with brut strength who overrides the mob. We need to see more physicality between Batman and his enemies. A major fight scene. And Bane’s just right for the role. Towards the end, the grand finale of the trilog, we see montage sequences…one showing Dr.Harleen walk out of Joker’s cell and leave the gate wide open. Just to tell us that he’s back, he’s out, and Gotham needs to be terrified again. There doesn’t even have to be a fourth installment. Just a sign that tells us what Batman’s life is going to be like.

Phew…that was one long rant. So my picks…The Riddler, Bane, as main villains, and The Joker along the way.
john k

Nolan will update characters when he sees fit. His flexible but not bastard like use of Scare Crow was nice. It will be riddler in the third film, but he will be a serial killer who leaves clues others can’t crack. This will show Batman playing a detective with the law on his heals interfering in his pursuit of the killer. The only thing that will scare Gotham more than the Bat is the Riddler. Poison Ivy is a terrible choice. I can only hope the 3rd Batman is not a repeat of the happening or has an agenda that has a political undertone.
howlingwlf

It seems the most logical villain choices will be the most “realistic” characters. Someone like Black Mask or Killer Croc (His original incarnation is a thug/crime boss with a real bad skin disorder) could easily fit in Nolan’s Batworld. Any fantastic villians (non super powered) showing up have already been set up by the toxin that al Ghul unleashed on Gotham in the first movie. While it didn’t completely cover all of Gotham it did hit the Asylum and the dangerous Narrows section of Gotham. Who knows what that will produce.
You can even see probable villian set ups in the first movie when Batman is in Arkham. As he’s running down the halls Nolan makes you see that inmates are taking note of him. When Batman breaks in one of the rooms he passes a set of twins (Tweedle Dee and Dum?).
There are a lot of ways to use a lot of Batman villians in the “real world”. If you notice Nolan was able to replicate the split suit that Two-Face wears by making the suit be the one Harvey wore when he was burned (which would have been cut away in a real medical situation).
I think Dent will return in the next movie because the Joker set him on his killing spree with the premise that Dent was deceived by all those people and that, not the Joker, is what put Dent in his present condition.
If Dent has been secreted away he will find out that Batman is taking the hit for the murders that Dent felt he rightfully committed. The knowledge of that will further cement the Joker’s contention that the ‘system’ and the Batman lie to serve their own agendas. Dent will escape to let Gotham know the truth and to finish the job he started in the second movie.
This storyline would leave plenty of space for Batman to be up against someone like Black mask or Killer Croc while dealing with a twist on the copycat Batmen -a thief naming herself Catwoman.
If you step back and think of how a villian would operate in the real world as opposed to how real they are in the comic book world you’ll see the Nolan’s have given themselves a lot more choices than it seems.
Jason

I like the idea of the Riddler as the primary villain. Catwoman would be a good addition, but the character does not have much weight to carry the movie, given her motives. I think both villains would have to be reinvented to be interesting and credible.

The riddler can work if he’s not done in an over the top manner. I have no problem with him being a bit screw-loose, but I think he needs to be portrayed as a serious threat, who is not just playing a game with everyone, but rather has some solid motives.

I think in an interesting twist, the Riddler shouldn’t be feuding with the Police by committing crimes, but perhaps trying to aid the Police and the city in trying to discover Batman’s identity, as well as putting batman through the gauntlet of riddles.

Back story would be important to touch on, but not excessively. It would be interesting if the Riddler were an ex government opperative, who worked in one of the intelligence agencies; a think tank type of guy. That gives him more credibility, because right away we know he is not only intelligent, but highly trained and skilled. I just don’t buy the Riddler being a random fruitcake who is very intelligent, and has nothing better to do than come up with riddles that have life and death implications.

I see Catwoman as a rogue, but naturally someone who lives for acquiring wealth and thrills. She could possibly be hired by the riddler for a large contract, that involves industrial espionage of Wayne Enterprises. I don’t know…

Of course, you would have Selena and Bruce get introduced and have the dual relationship. I think they should go a step further with their relationship, and make them fall in love. Then near the middle of the film, they discover each other’s identities and have to decide what more important: their love for each other, or their individual agendas.

For a plot twist, well, not really a twist, but Selena could be discovered as Carmine Falcone’s daughter. Actually, in “Batman: The Long Halloween”, it is implied that Selena Kyle is Carmine Falcone’s daughter. So, that could be cool.

Ultimately, the plot should be about Batman trying to continue to help Gotham, while trying not to get apprehended by the continuing pressure from the Police. A good idea, would be to have a new cop introduced who is charged with the task of leading a task force to capture Batman. This will be good for Jim Gordon’s character, because he knows that Batman is a hero, but at the same time, he’s the Police commissioner and his job is to uphold the law.

Anyway, I’m sure Nolan and company will come up with something a lot better than what I have mentioned. Guaranteed. I can’t wait until the next movie!
alyivy

hey i think Poison Ivy AND harley Quin should be in the next one ,,,if u read the commics the joker scares Harley sooo much she runs off and befreinds Ivy ,,,we havent had a femal villan for a while ,,,and to say plants r not scary or evil enuff is bull shit ,,, there r more plants that humans they would win lmao ,,,, and harley will bring back the joker the best villan out there … just think on it lol
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Josh

I believe that Nolan needs to do the story with Riddler, Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow. Riddler is great with the mind games and they can Freeze is always a powerful charchter. Those two alone would be great together now in the way that Nolan is making the Batman movies darker again. I can’t wait for The Dark Knight to hit DVD.
Deadpool

Ok, I think the Riddler could be done very well. I would love to see Catwoman, Hush, Azrael, Talia Al Ghul, Harley Quinn, and even Penguin or Poison Ivy if they were done seriously. You can still have elements of the powered villains if they are taken seriously. The same goes for Batgirl, and Robin. If taken seriously as a character they are an essential part of the Batverse that should be included. I love Johnny Depp but I’m not sure he would make a good Riddler. I think Megan Fox would make the purrfect Catwoman. I like the Hoffman idea for Penguin. How about Katee Sackhoff for Harley, and Tricia Helfer as Ivy. I would like to see the characters of Barbara Gorden and Dick Grayson introduced, not as their costumed alter egos, yet. You could lay the groundwork for future sequels. I see Anne Hathaway as a good Barbara/Batgirl.
Oh, and please, no Bane, Mr Freeze, or Clayface. These characters are just stupid.
Glenn

How about Hugo Strange? A great, eerie mad scientist villain with a supernatural element, and a direct connection to Batman’s earliest, weirdest days. Not to mention a palpable threat with a modus operandi and lust for power almost as bonkers as the Joker’s. Excellent, gothic, pulpy stuff. Nolan’s Batman movies are top flight, but he tends to draw on the more recent elements of the mythology. Why not the great Steve Engelhart / Marshall Rogers era?
JB

The Script is right under everyones nose…

The city has been saved from the Joker
The city is hunting down Batman
Meaning that the police is preoccupied with the hunt for Batman
The Media gives negative publicity to Batman and the world watches
The mob is temporarily run by small time thugs nobody big…

A new player by the name of Bane sees this oppurtunity and comes in to take over leadership of the underworld…
-Bane does not have to be a maniacal CGI hulk figure he can be someone subtle, slightly above average physique, does not have to pump a secret solution into his veins, could use a high dosage steroid which he calls venom
-everyone is talking about gangs and gangsters, in Knightfall, Bane is a gangster who takes over the underworld, extremely smart and intelligent and has no mercy

Another character sees the Gotham PD distracted with the Bat and this new character Bane who is causing an upheaval in the underworld and enters, she is Catwoman, a simple subtle thief.

This also holds true to the comics because in the Knightfall series Catwoman does have a few encounters with Bane when he is the head of Gothams underworld. IF you need to spice it up some more you can throw in a third character who may be secondary to Bane and Catwoman… Black Mask. Black Mask has always gone after Bruce Wayne, he can discover that Batman = Bruce Wayne, and after Bane “breaks hehe i couldnt help it” Black mask then he finds out from him that Bruce Wayne = Batman

Now Bane is going after Bruce Wayne/Batman, Catwoman has been hurt by Bane and helps Batman dismantle Banes criminal empire

THEN OMG THIS ENDING WOULD BE A PERFECT WAY TO END A TRILOGY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT

Bane and Batman fight EXACTLY how the fight is in the Comic, they both duke it out on a reasonably high building, beating each other to a total pulp while the city watches on (this is to signify Batman becoming their hero once again) and Bane in his final ounce of strength breaks batman (or injures him very severley) and throws him down…. the police who have been holding their fire so as not to shoot Batman see him being broken and open fire on Bane, Bane = dead or injured and captured…. THE PEOPLE carry Batman to the ambulance, cutscene and dramatics follow, we find out he is in serious but stable condition and is recovering ANDDDDDDD then Commissioner Gordon talks to a secondary character or one of his cops and explains how his people will take over the city until Batman can return

PERFECTTTTTTTTT ENDINGGGGG TO THE TRILOGYYYY
JJ

police chasing batman too distracted

mob has been taken over by black mask
bane comes in takes over mob, learns of identity from black mask since black mask is always after bruce wayne
catwoman is introduced as a subtle thief trying to bag some profit while cops are distracted
catwoman steps on banes feet and rips off his men
bane attacks catwoman
catwoman helps batman (romance scene?) .. batman begins dismantling banes gang
final showdown between bane and batman
bane breaks batman in front of everyone (just like in comic) and once he throws batman down, gordon and his men open fire
batmans fate is in the hands of the city, they decide to leave his mask covered. lucious fox and alfred take him away.. build new batcave etc. while he recovers, and while he recoveres jim gordon and gpd control streets. DONE wrap perfect trilogy

realistic characters, a menacing yet extremely intelligent bane, a slick and smart thief, a gangster with a black mask, simple, realistic and easy to make also holds true to the comics and DONE PERFECT TRILOGY.. if characters are portrayed to their roles in the comics then it will easily match Dark Knight or do better.
Clint

So why does everyone assume Rachel is dead? Her hair is blown by the percussion from an explosion… but from WHERE? From her letter to Bruce and her feelings for Harvey, his death – at the hands of Batman, aka, Bruce (who has already let Harvey take the rap once) – is the perfect fuel for revenge and this could tie in well with the storyline so far of misguided vengeance and misunderstandings and miscommunications and Rachel could know who Bruce is without him knowing who she is making for a gooey love tryst.

Or Johnny Depp. Batman can’t “be broken” in the films. This isn’t Marty Scorsese.
Christina

Mr. Reese is not the riddler, the riddler has a name and it’s not mr. reese. It’s edward nigma. (E. Nigma) And you call yourselves batman fans…….


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